Talk:Utopian socialism

Charles Fourier and incels: relevance

@RedParabola: You have drawn attention to the several paragraphs in the Charles Fourier section which describe his views on what is now known as "inceldom". This content was created by an anti-Marxist editor (the same user that created Political collapse pornography) with, apparently, an intense focus on incels as a topic. I allowed his edits because they were interesting and not disruptive; after all, this Wiki already had mentions of the phenomenon and an Incel page, and perhaps you can agree the topic has relevance here given its extensive body of Marxist analysis, such as connections drawn to alienation, neoliberalism, and so on. As for my view, sexual neuroticism seems typical of the kind of idealist flaws attributed to utopian socialism by Marx and Engels and is relevant in this light. The only source cited in the section, appearing several times and only referencing two consecutive pages, has an astounding quote:

"In 1816 a young man was prosecuted in the French courts for having raped six women whose ages ranged from sixty to eighty. (No doubt he raped a good many others who were not heard of.) His trial was discussed in all the journals.... The man was found guilty and sentenced. Yet it might have been wiser to distribute pieces of his clothing as religious relics to inspire imitation of his fine example. It is evident that this young paragon was acting out of need, and it is also evident that the sexual needs of men and women can become just as urgent as their need for food."

If the man openly held these kinds of views, it seems a discussion of his ideology would be complete without them. So I think the topic has a tangential place in this page if analyzed critically and incorporated into a larger body describing Fourier's worldview, proposed system, and political activism. I say cut the incel stuff down into a summary, maybe add a disgusting quote like this one for emphasis, and save the details for either a "Charles Fourier" page or a much improved future version of his subsection here. Thoughts? Harrystein (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the information on Fourier's support for involuntary celibacy is relevant in some sense and was also properly sourced. I think that the issue I have with the inclusion of this content is that is isn't relevant to this page. When readers are coming to this article, are they wanting to discover the political and socio-economic ideas of utopian socialists, or are they just on this article to hear about Fourier's thoughts on celibacy and procreation? I assume the former.

I think that this content has some place on Leftypedia, but not here. Possibly it can be included in this page in a highly condensed form or be re-included on the incel article. Still, I should have tried and reached consensus before making these edits. RedParabola (talk) 17:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)